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Post by sdhakala on Apr 2, 2012 20:25:01 GMT -6
The three Prayers we heard of was re-rolls to wound for the unit, 5+ ward save for the unit in CC, and Soulfire which is now Flaming attacks for the unit and does damage to units in base contact with the Priest. Now augments instead of RIPs?
Griffonbanner same as usual for 30 slaves Runefang is still in the book at 42.5 slaves Helm of the ratslayer. fear to everyone, terror to skaven but skavens hate the model wearing it. 7.5 slaves AOMI 1+AS and 6++ for 25 slaves Steelstandard. ignore -movement from barding and reroll 1's on the charge, flee and pursue Mace of helstrum 25 slaves Van horstmans speculum still there at 20 slaves Ring of volans and the white cloak reworked at 25 slavespts steel banner is 17.5 slaves points
General up with 15pts start with light armour and the hold your ground special rule. No ancient heirlom rule. Grand master i think was up by 20pts and cannot choose demigryph mount Archlector down by 25, altar up by 50, only has power lvl 4 banishment as spell now Wizard down by 10 Engineers can hand over their BS to the hellblaster or helstorm
Captain up by 10 start with same as general warrior priest down by 25pts with battle prayers as mentioned. witch hunters will be the same as the old captain price, and the "heresy rule" is that he gains reroll to hit and killingblow against the target. He gives his unit immune to terror ( it only causes fear to the unit) and himselfe is also immune to fear (not the whole unit). He reroll to wound against wizards, undeads and demons.
(core) All heroes and chars that used to be able to ride pegasi can still do so. pegasi down by 5pts and got some upgrades like +1 stomp or reroll 1's on the charge.
All statetroops are up by 1 point except spearmen. Rumored that swordsmen down to i3 (but still i4 on GW site). militia is up by 1 and archers goes down 1pts. knights is down by ONE point. and only 1 unit may be innercircle and ONLY that unit may take a magic banner.
(special) greatswords are up by1 but can take magic banners mortars are up by 33% and are s2(6) great cannons are up by 20% Flagellants are now a special unit (get ws3, but still WS2 on GW site) and takes d6 s3 when sacrificing 1 dead= reroll to hit, 2dead = reroll to wound, 4+dead = +1t Huntsmen are now special choice at same price as old handgunners and archers. Demigryphs can take either halberds or lances (normal halberds)
(rare) Helblaster is like before but with new missfire chart: 1 missfire, the rest of the barrels shoot half their number, 2 missfires, roll on blackpowderchart, 3 missfires, 30hits and the machine explodes. Can now use the engineers BS to fire helstorm fires d3 s3 small templates. roll artillery dice + the number of template scatterdices ( allways counted as inderect fire) Steamtank is now down by 50pts. Appears to not autofail initiative tests with i3 for model. the steamboiler works like you roll a artydice, if the number is higher than your current wounds or a missfire, roll on the missfirechart. to do this roll a d3 + the number of steampoints you generated. gets d6 random move per steam point. steamgun now works like a breathweapon in CC aswell as shooting only that it works in CC every turn. The strength of the steamgun depends on how much steampoints you put on it up to s6.
The light mobile gives a dispeldice, 6++ to all units within 6" and fires a boundspell power 4. s8 flaming magic missile that does d3wounds and pierce ranks like boltthrower. reroll wounds against undeads and demons The heavens mobile gives +1 to hit in cc and has a boundspell that shoots a template that can do damage or turn the targeted unit towards a random direction.
Detachment rule is as i've mentioned. there was a list of special rules that passed from the parent unit to the detachment. Must be within 3" of parent to benefit from parent unit's special rules."
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 3, 2012 19:46:19 GMT -6
More stuff pulled off threads from persons that have the book (for those who cannot wait like I can't)
Both priests and AL are down by 25pts Warrior Priest/AL abilities: WP/AL channel as though lvl 0 wizards hatred to the unit (not WP char thou?) battle prayers: augments, not RIP, spells power level 3 if the prayer is succesfully cast on a regimental unit, any of its detach within 3 gains the effects range of prayers: 0... only WP & his unit (+additional detachments linked to the parent unit the wp is inside) war altar: 5+, 4++, hatred to friendly units within 6, prayers cast by the AL riding the altar target all friendly units within 6 bound spell, power level 4: banishment upgrade: can cause terror
hammer of sig: reroll to wound shield of blabla: 5+ ward save (only in cc) soulfire: flaming attacks + str 4 hits to any model in btb contact, undeads & demons str 5 , no armor saves
Flagellants +2pts, special now (never core), and buffs are: You roll a D6, and the flaggies suffer that many S3 hits. 1+ Dead = Hatred. 2+ Dead = Reroll to wound. 4+ Dead = +1 T. ("Sadly it seems that neither Cruddace nor GW want's us to field Flagellants anymore." Want us to use demigryphs.)
detachment is quite long but let's say that you give to the detach: hatred, frenzy, hold the line, itp, stubborn, steadfast, stupidity if the parent unit has that ability & within 3 (includes prayers on unit) Also, can counter charge (after charge against parent unit is resolved) and stand and shoot in support of parent. No free flank though/enemy unit must expose flank to countercharge to get the flank.
knights: option to replace lance &shield with great weapon (apparently no hammers at +1S as reported) only Reiksgard special order, reiksguard are inner circle knights with stubborn special rule
greatswords can now take a magic banner (no equip options)
outriders: 42 nuclear bombs halved, bs 4, 3 shots; champion can exchange the rep hundgun with: rep pistol or grenade launcher;
no griffon banner w/o bsb speculum: you must swap s,t,i,a in challenges (no ws swap?)
Captain and general hold the line rule is 3 dice on break tests only (like cold blooded but only for break tests); applies to all units in range/with character
+1 pt for state troops other than spearmen confirmed, swordsmen now i3, not i4
rocket battery: d3 rockets fired small temp, str 3 armour piercing (indirect fire) The volley gun gained AP; one misfire = half shots, two = misfire roll, three = Kaboomm 30 shots.
Helblaster volley and rocket battery approximately 60 slaves each (slightly more expensive), same price as great cannon in new book
mortar +33% points, str 2, black powder misfire chart, LARGE template, armor piercing, str 6 on center, d3 wounds
MARKUS WULFHART/HUNSTMEN he is a standard cap (profile) with hatred (monsters) itp, scouts reroll to hit (shooting) monster, no randomize on ridden monsters, you chose upgrade one unit of huntsmen to wulfhart's hunter: itp, monster hunters amber bow:wounds monster on 4+ d3 wounds
GRIFFON double head: chomp attack with +1 to hit large target blood roar: fear & terror test with 3d6 discarding the lowest
witch hunter: WP stats, light armor, pistol; with a few options like brace of pistols, great weapon MR 2 at the start of battle chose 1 enemy model, reroll to hit, sniper, killing blow, even with shooting hehheheh pass fear tests, terror become fear for him & unit he is in reroll to wound vs wizards, undeads & demons
captains: +10 bananas general,gote: +15 fruits
Hurricanium (+1 PD if have at least one, +1 to hit for units within 6") bound spell power level 4 direct damage spell 24 range, small template, D6 scatter roll d6 for result, lore attribute heavens on units with fly rule the result of the d6 is used also on this chart: 1: nothing..... 2: all models hits suffer str 2 hit, units touched by template -1 to hit for 1 until caster's next magic phase 3: if the hole of the template is under a unit not engaged roll a scatter dice and rotate that unit in that direction 4-5: str 6 under hole, str 3 under template 6: str 8 under hole, d6 wounds, under template str 3
Wizard lord -10pts vs old book Battle wizard: same as old book
Halfling hot pot - counts as mortar or helstorm.
Master engineer (same cost as before, may have to choose single war machine to lend re-roll or BS to before shooting)
Steam Tanks T6 costs less; Can always fire, even when moved. Now random movement = #spD6 rolled(for example 3 sp for movement allows 3D6" move), impact hits are D6+spD3 (in other words roll sp D3 for number of additional impact hits above D6) generate up to 5 SP. Roll an artillery dice, if misfire roll D3 on mishap table with a +1 for each SP; misfire occurs if misfire on dice or number on art dice is greater than number of wounds remaining Steam cannon : As great cannnon, 12" range for every steam point spent.
steam tank misfire chart (D3+sp is result on chart; Hope I got this right): 1-4: roll a d6: 1-2 no sp on engine this turn 3-4 no sp on steam gun this turn 5-6 no sp this turn 5: -d3 sp 6:-d6 sp and stank & any unit in base contact takes 2d6 strenght 2 hits 7: d3+sp wounds to stank(??) 8: st goes boom & all units within 6" suffer 2d6 str 4 hits Notice wounds to stank are not an issue unless sp+D3 is 6 or greater. This means that one could choose 2 sp and have no risk of taking a wound and a good chance that, even with a misfire, the stank will have sp or either the gun or the engine.
Laser Wagon : 6++ to all within 6". 1+ of these = +1 Dispel Dice Bound 6 MM 36" range, S8 bolt thrower multiple wounds D3. no AS, reroll to wound agains undead/daemons
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 4, 2012 21:44:14 GMT -6
Some more stuff. Warseer rumor thread shut down for IP issues.
All of the Warmachines (cannon, mortar, helblaster, helstorm) roll on the Black Powder Warmachine Misfire chart in the rule book. (The volley gun needs to roll two misfires out of three arty rolls before it misfires. One misfire just cuts shots rolled in half.)
Archers are regimental units now and can take detachments. Archers and Huntsmen now get full command options. Engineers can take magic items again. Warrior Priests can cast one, two, or all three of their prayers per turn.
Fiery Demagogue is an actual rule! (Its an extra prayer which makes his unit stubborn).
Steam Tank can take the Hochland Long Rifle.
Grand Masters can still join any unit they like.
Anyone can take a Runefang.
Flagellants have basic Frenzy (meaning it can be lost).
Karl, Kurt and Ludwig STILL do not have the option for a shield.
I just wanted to clarify that the master engineer confers his ballistic skill AND re roll ability to a single warmachine.
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 5, 2012 18:58:42 GMT -6
Special Characters The big man : KF costs 170 skavenslaves cold blooded to unit, ItP Leadership 18, when on big chicken or dragon 24" Chicken : LT, terror, Fly, Bloodroar. Loyal : passes all monster reaction rolls. Ghal Maraz is unchanged Runefang is unchanged Silver seal : 4++, MR skavenslave.
Kurt (64 spearmen) is the same he used to be. 160 skavenslaves
Ludwig (37 spearmen) is the same, but his BSB bubble is 18"
Marius (44 spearmen) is mad
and has a random table to represent this.
Markus Wolfhart 28 spearmen
hates monsters, is ItP and scouts. sort of sniper vs monsters, reroll H. Can pass this on to a unit of Huntsmen. Amber bow : wounds monster on 4+, Dzombie W
Volkmar : 38 spearmen Al and has +1 to cast. 5++ regen. Staff is +skavenslave S when on War Altar, otherwise hand weapon
Luthor : 31 spearmen. WP and 4++ Once/battle add +Dzombie to WS,S,T and A for 1 CC knows extra prayer, grants stubborn.
Balthasar : 180 skavenslaves As before Lvl4, Metal loremaster The more enemy wizards, the more MR he gets (+1 per, up to 3). 3++ vs shooting +2 to cast.
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 9, 2012 10:52:32 GMT -6
I now have the book and read through it. I'd be interested in Aaron's and Jesse's comments as two more experienced empire players.
Many of the changes/nerfs (WPs and ALs losing the ability to generate dispel dice, increase costs of great cannon, stank modified to T6 and changed rule for boiler malfunction, and changes ot mortars) were somewhat predictable and expected. I am kind of disappointed by the lack of creativity in the design of the book/army relative to the OK and VC books, the points costs increases of most of the state troops infantry, the limitations on the master engineers combined with no ability to take an engineer as a champion on the war machines, and the changes in the mortars (either increase the points costs or nerf the strength or size of the temple but not both decrease S and increase points cost significantly at the same time). There was a clearly opportunity to offer halflings as an option and the two wizard mobiles are not very impressive compared with the ironblasters and mortis engines of the prior two books.
Core:
The new detachment rules and better battle prayers replacing the sigmar blessings may make state troops still quite viable but state troops are now more reliant on having warriors priests in the units and/or an arch lector on a war alter in range and being able to get off the improved battle prayers in order to augment units.
Spearmen no points change (now more viable relative to other state troop alternatives just because other units had cost increases) Halberds cost more (viable, especially as detachments) Swordmen cost more (no longer as viable as an option) Archers cost less and now can be parent and detachment units (more viable, can be used both as parent and detachments, good for hiding a master engineer or witch hunter in a detachment or independent unit due to skirmish rule with march and shoot, could be useful with a stubborn parent as annoying redirectors) Crossbowmen cost more point (less viable than before except as detachments with stand and shoot and counter charge) Handgunners cost more point (less viable than before except as detachments with stand and shoot and counter charge)
I do not believe that the points costs increases are justified by the improved detachment rules (which allow the points of detachments to be part of the parent unit cost and, thus, count as part of the core) and due to the improved warrior priest battle prayers. A detachment no longer automatically gets a flank charge as a counter charge but a detachment gets the pyschology benefits of its parent (ITP, stubborn, steadfast, hatred, etc.). For example, a unit of 10 archers acting as a detachment to great swords can act as stubborn roadblocks/redirectors to opposing units and can screen the great sword from BS-based shooting. Additionally, the heirloom rule that allowed one state troop unit a take a magic banner if a general led the army was lost.
What does benefit you, however, is that knights are slighly cheaper and the inner circle knights upgrade is part of core. I really think that knights with great weapons and inner circle knights with a magic standard will now increasingly make up a significant part of core. This allows characters to get much better armour saves and to be mounted and has synergy with demigryph knights clearly being undercosted as a single rank unit (supporting attacks are not good due to rider not being the heavy hitter). Also, Reiksguard knights are special units that have the inner circle upgrade and a modest points cost increase for being stubborn. Thus, a cavalry-focused army is quite viable with the higher armour saves and ability to run a stubborn unit. A unit of regular knights with great weapons and inner circle knights may prove to be a better choice than greatswords just because of the greater mobility, improved armour save and ability to count as core.
Special:
As for special, pistoliers are still worth running (pistols have range 12") as are outriders.
Huntsmen are much cheaper but pretty weak skirmisher/scouts (should have a better BS given the description).
Flaggelants were increased in point cost significantly, still unbreakable, have a less reliable martyr rule, and only have frenzy (which can be lost if they lose combat). Thus, doubt you will see a lot of these guys anymore.
Mortars were really nerfed by being made significantly more expensive and given only S2 AP for hits not in the center. (Aaron suggests that the combination of large template and S6 multiple wounds for model hit by the hole may still make this a viable but no longer obvious choice.) Great cannons had a points cost increase but are still worth playing. The biggest problem is that master engineers now must choose in advance which warmachine they are going to lend their abilities to and, once having made that choice, they cannot shot their weapons. The only positive is an engineer gets one re-roll of a scatter or art dice and to use its BS to boost as war machine.
Rare Give the new master engineer rules and the new rules for hellblaster volley guns (HBVG) will make the master engineer best for that unit. With an engineer on a HBVG, one can dramatically reduce the risk of a complete misfire (two misfire rolls) and increase the number of hits and the hit rate (+1 to BS) such that the gun can potential tear up a pretty tough unit (wth S5 AP hits).
Master engineers can no longer join a warmachine (replacing one of the crew option is not in the army book), so they might be in a cheap unit of archers to max look out sir and give the archers the ability to block attacks on the war machines (especially if detachments to steadfast or stubborn parent units). Thus, you will like see then placed in a unit within 3" of a cannon and a HBVG and allocated to the cannon if the HBVG is not in range and then allocated to the HBVG once enemy troops are within 24".
The new wizard chariots are not impressive. They are probably just cheap enough to consider playing as tough (T5), W5 chariots with nice automatic augments (+1 DD and 6+ ward save or +1PD and +1 to hit). The buffs are neat but the low armour save for such an expensive chariot and low or no ward save makes these expensive chariots with some limited range augments and bound spells. The bound spells will often compete for PD with the battle prayers of WPs and the lvl 4 spells once in combat.
The stank is cheaper and has more options in some ways. Its movement is less reliable in range but the random movement rule is annoying to opponents (like the hellpit abom of skaven). It is more likely to misfire early. But with less steam points, the consequences are managable. Using steam points, the stank can shoot its cannon (when not in combat) for a much longer range and shoot its steam gun when in combat. However, the steam tank also has the ability to continue to function when it has taken on wounds (take fewer Steam points and roll to see if one does not misfire and with lower SP there is no risk of taking more wounds).
The hellstorm rocket may be worth considering because of its potential for multiple template hits but the indirect fire rule is troublesome.
Warrior priests are now a lot cheaper, have better battle prayers to augment the units they are in, and can channel power dice and dispel dice (the loss of the ability to generate dispel dice was pretty much expected in 8th edition). You are likely to see WPs spammed in multiple units for this reason along with a lvl 4 wizard (made slightly cheaper).
The general of the army is much more likely to be the general now, grand masters (with +1Ws and +1A and ITP in cav) are alos more likely to be seen as a lord choice 9the general), and captains with their hold the line 3D6 break tests and reasonably low points costs would be worth playing in units of knights. Because demigryph knights are likely to be points efficient and worth taking and are monstrous cav, you can put a captain on a peg in a larger unit of demigryph knights and gain an extra wound for the captain with the peg and hit reasonably hard (pegs get two attacks) and have the ability to fly the captain out to hit something like a chariot, war machine, skirmishers, or fast cav unit.
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Post by cmusgrove on Apr 10, 2012 8:02:08 GMT -6
I play empire, and have read through the book. My write-up isn't going to be near as long as yours, since you seemed to cover most things. Basically empire before was boring to play competitively. Do a bunch of warmachines and shoot them before they make it to you. If they make it across the field you were in trouble. The other build was knights, 2 stanks, and a war alter, where everything was hard to hurt unless they had a metal mage. Reading the rumor I thought man they nerfed empire to the point of almost being unplayable. Then I read the book and found more nerfs. However, I do think removing empire may be good for the completive game, allowing people to field more monsters, and people riding monsters.
My biggest complaint, is to field a decent army you almost need to start over. Anything you had before is basically useless.
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 10, 2012 9:10:22 GMT -6
Thanks. Unless one relied heavily on flaggies and swordsmen, most of the old stuff is still good. For me, other than having 40 flaggelents and a decent plastic war wagon (which I don't understand why they did not add as an option instead of the gimmicky wizard mobiles), I managed to have the right stuff purchased. (I have too much really in retrospect and could easily play a 4000 to 5000 points battle with everything constructed with either an infantry heavy or a cav heavy army.) Fortunately, most of my free company, state troops, and cav were left without arms attached or are still on sprues. So, I really only need to add demigryphs and stuff to play a decent build.
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Post by cmusgrove on Apr 11, 2012 7:43:41 GMT -6
One small correction Flaggelants were increased in point cost signficantly, no longer unbreakable, have a less reliable martyr rule, and only have frenzy (which can be lost if they lose combat). This allows other models to join the unit but at a tremendous increase in cost and no ability to make them core. Thus, doubt you will see a lot of these guys anymore.
Flaggelents can't take chars. They are still unbreakable. Unbreakable makes it to where chars can't join them.
If you look at the state troops and go oh they only went up a point, it doesn't seem that bad. However if you look at them and say they had a 20% point increase, then you see that there will be 20% less state troops in your army. 20% less wounds,.... It seems like a bigger nerf.
A small buff if I read it correctly engineers pigeon bombs lost the move or shoot rule. So in a unit of archers they can march and drop a pigeon bomb.
I agree the only real viable build is knights for core, 3 cannons with no engineer spread across the back, a level 4 wizlord, a unit of 2 of demigriphons and lots of supporting heroes. Maybe the new chariots, they are very cheap (point wise not cost wise).
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 11, 2012 8:30:05 GMT -6
Thanks. I looked again at the book on Flaggies and realized that they are unbreakable (problem that happens when rumors are wrong and confirmed).
I think that there is room for a large spearmen unit with archer detachments as diverters/counterfire units and halberds for countercharge. I think that the lower cost of archers, their skirmish ability and low costs as detachments (5 models only) makes them ideal diverters and irritants, as well as good for hiding a witch hunter or a master engineer (which cannot join a war machine).
However, the ability to have inner circle knights with a magic banner and swap lance and shield for a great weapon in core is awfully effective. I'd probably favor only one larger unit of demigryph knights. I'd also run a stubborn unit of reiksguard because you are not paying that much for stubborn over an inner circle knight. With knights in core and price effective, a grand master (ITP benefit and +1A, +1WS over general) becomes a viable general option instead of a general of the army or arch lector and use the cheaper captains (same fighting stats buy one less wound that a gen of the army) for the hold the line and fighting abilities.
Also, do not underestimate the hellblaster volley gun with an engineer. I ran the numbers with a simulation program: Strength 5 AP hits with no multishot rule penalty is pretty impressive.
Without an engineer, these are the odds: One misfire: shots on remaining two rolls cut in half 34.65% Two misfires; roll on the black powder misfire table 6.98% Three misfires: 30 shots then blows up 0.47% (one might think that the odds a a misfire are 50% with three art dice but the combinations of double and triple misfires result in only a 42.2% probability of one or more misfires each turn) Shots: Average 12.65; Median 12.00 Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 30.000000 01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 28.000000 05-%ile 0.000000 95-%ile 26.000000 10-%ile 3.000000 90-%ile 22.000000 25-%ile 6.000000 75-%ile 20.000000 Median 12.000000
Long Range Hits: Avg. 4.21; Median 4.0 Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 21.000000 01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 12.000000 05-%ile 0.000000 95-%ile 10.000000 10-%ile 0.000000 90-%ile 8.000000 25-%ile 2.000000 75-%ile 6.000000 Median 4.000000
Short Range Hits: Avg. 6.32 Median 6.0 Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 24.000000 01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 16.000000 05-%ile 0.000000 95-%ile 14.000000 10-%ile 1.000000 90-%ile 12.000000 25-%ile 3.000000 75-%ile 9.000000 Median 6.000000
By dedicating an engineer to the HBVG, one significantly changes the odds: One misfire: shots on remaining two rolls cut in half 11.60% Two misfires; roll on the black powder misfire table 1.55% Three misfires: 30 shots then blows up 0.07% Shots: Average 16.33; Median 16.0 Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 30.000000 01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 28.000000 05-%ile 5.000000 95-%ile 26.000000 10-%ile 7.000000 90-%ile 24.000000 25-%ile 12.000000 75-%ile 20.000000 Median 16.000000
Long Range Hits: Avg. 8.17; Median 8.0 Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 24.000000 01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 17.000000 05-%ile 2.000000 95-%ile 14.000000 10-%ile 3.000000 90-%ile 13.000000 25-%ile 6.000000 75-%ile 11.000000 Median 8.000000
Short Range Hits: Avg. 10.88 Median 11.0 Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 27.000000 01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 21.000000 05-%ile 3.000000 95-%ile 18.000000 10-%ile 4.000000 90-%ile 17.000000 25-%ile 8.000000 75-%ile 14.000000 Median 11.000000
The optimal targets are elite units, chariots and monsters even with high armour saves. Absent a ward save, you can kill 2 to 3 chaos knights per turn at long range and 3 to 4 at short range. Against heavy infantry armies with elite units having T4, this fire can be devastating. You should kill about 5 wounds on average at long range and 7 wounds at short range with an engineer. That is 1 and 2/3's ironguts/ogres/maneaters long range and 2 and 1/3 ironguts/ogres/maneaters short range. In the first round you may end up more than 24 inches from a target or shooting at scouts or vanguard units, so it may make sense to have the engineer devoted to a great cannon in that instance.
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Post by sdhakala on Apr 27, 2012 10:49:52 GMT -6
It was pointed out to me that the above tables do not take into account the ability to re-roll one of the artillery dice is you do not misfire. It is a close call if you roll a 2 but works in your favour. You have a one-sixth chance of losing half your shots on the other two dice and losing whatever you rolled on the low artillery dice for a chance of gaining on average 4 more shots assuming you are re-rolling a 2. On average, you have 14 shots. You have a one-sixth chance of losing 8 shots by re-rolling the 2 and a 5/6th chance of gaining on average 4 shots.
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Post by Eric on Jun 14, 2012 7:14:56 GMT -6
Was looking at the Empire Book a little and I had a couple of several (possibly mad) questions: ● Archers don't have an upper size limit? 10+ ● Archers always skirmish even if they are a parent infantry unit? [Am I remembering an older book where archers were 10-15 models?] ● The new book would allow a large parent unit of 50-ish skirmished archers who could fire 50 shots 360 degrees?? [Did they do away with skirmishers shooting 360?] ● Does being skirmishers impose an upper size limit? ● What does a proper skirmish formation consist of these days? ---Each model must be 1 inch away from all other models but no more than two inches apart from other models in its unit? ---Models can touch but they can't be squared up into rows/columns... ---Models must be at least 1/10th" no more than 1.0 inches apart (cannot touch...) ● Part of what got me to wondering about all this is that I read some set of rules for a tournament somewhere that said all models must be on trays including skirmishers and I wondered what a proper "skirmish tray" is supposed to look like.
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Post by cmusgrove on Jun 14, 2012 7:46:58 GMT -6
You need to read page 77 of the BRB. Skirmishers have to form up in ranks and files just like everyone else (except they don't get to count ranks for combat) and they have to be 1/2" apart. Also they don't have 360 line of sight. Unless they were in a 2x25 formation not all of them would get to shoot. There is more but its best just to read page 77.
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Post by sdhakala on Jun 14, 2012 14:31:28 GMT -6
Chris covered most of the questions as well as providing the appropriate BRB page.
1. No size limit on archers but unless stubborn or steadfast in a forest, a unit of skirmishers gets no rank bonuses, I believe cannot be steadfast, and cannot break ranks if hitting a flank of a rank and file unit, and still can only shoot in two ranks because they have no volley special rule. 2. Always. Good for baby-sitting an engineer in a detachment unit or separate unit. A character joining a skirmisher unit gets the skirmisher special rule. A mounted character cannot join a skirmisher unit. 3. Per above, no 360 line of sight for skirmishers because they now have a facing and must be deployed/played in a formation with ranks and files with 1/2 inch between each model in the unit. 4. No size limit for skirmisher special rule. 5. Per above, the models must be arrayed at the beginning and end of the movement phase as a loose rank and file formation with each model 1/2 inch apart except when in combat. When in combat, the formation compresses down to a normal rank and file style but receives no rank bonus. 6. The movement tray is due to the answer to 5. Basically, skirmishers begin and end their movement (with free reforms in between and ability to march and shoot as skirmishers) in a fixed formation such that a movement tray is convenient.
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Post by Eric on Jun 14, 2012 20:42:35 GMT -6
Thanks. Clearly I am getting my versions of Warhammer mixed up. It has been a long time since I played a game where skirmishers were involved on either side. My BRB is stored away ... somewhere. I did an online search for skirmish trays and was confused by the different types.
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Post by aaronchapman on Jun 22, 2012 11:02:30 GMT -6
... and still can only shoot in two ranks because they have no volley special rule. You are right that Archers don't have the Volley Fire rule, fortunately they don't need it since it is a weapon special rule, not a model special rule. All Bows (Short, normal, & Long) get Volley Fire.
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