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Post by clint on Apr 9, 2013 10:32:16 GMT -6
Hey Guys,
I had a blast trying out a new army at the Megabattles tournament. Great fun, really friendly players that I am looking forward to playing again soon...
My build was fun but likely not optimal, and I learned a lot (mostly that I miss my Ironbalsters). I had a chat with Aaron after he cleaned me up in round 5 and he proposed an idea for a fun WoC build, so I went home and plugged it into Army builder and this is what I came up with... Would love to hear any thoughts you might have on it...
WoC - 2500 - Troll build v 1
Daemon Prince (465.0 pts) ... General; Magic Level (x2); Mark of Nurgle (Daemon); Chaos Armour; Daemonic Flight; ... Items: Sword of Striking, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem ... Powers: Burning Body, Chaos Familiar, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder ... The Lore of Death (or Nurgle) Throgg (195.0 pts) Chaos Trolls (8#, 304.0 pts) ... Composition: Core, Extra Hand Weapon; Chaos Trolls (8#, 304.0 pts) ... Composition: Core, Extra Hand Weapon; Chaos Trolls (8#, 304.0 pts) ... Composition: Core, Extra Hand Weapon; Chaos Trolls (8#, 304.0 pts) ... Composition: Core, Extra Hand Weapon; Skullcrushers of Khorne (4#, 312.0 pts) ... Ensorcelled Weapons, no command Skullcrushers of Khorne (4#, 312.0 pts) ... Ensorcelled Weapons, no command
Thanks, /Clint
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Post by dg1 on Apr 9, 2013 12:06:57 GMT -6
A couple of things. First, you really need a BSB with trolls taking stupidity tests and your daemon prince running around away from your units. Aaron had an idea of a BSB on a daemonic mount or disc of tzeentch with moTz and third eye and talisman of preservation. The trolls are an excellent screen for the BSB and DP initially and can keep up with the skullcrushers enough to keep the BSB in range of everything. The Daemon prince is very good but I am not sold on burning body and would replace with the flaming breath weapon mutation. If someone runs a unit with 2+ ward to flaming against the daemon you could end up with a long slap fight. Second. that many trolls makes you very vulnerable to purple sun and pit of shades. I'd drop two units of trolls, add a lot of warhound chaff units (consider point upgrade) and at least a BSB. Note that war hounds benefit from Throgg's and the DP general leadership, making them less like to panic and easier to control. With throgg in one unit, you could run two core units of 7 and 8 trolls respectively and make up the rest with warhounds or something else. You also need the war hounds to keep the skull crushers from being baited into long charges. Third, I am not sold on no command for skullcrushers. I think music and a standard and even a magic banner (swiftness, flaming on one, standard of discipline, and gleaming pennant could be in order). Watching battles, the standard and music seemed to matter in helping offset the SCR of larger units and allowing you to more reliably hold them up and retain frenzy. Having them marked Khorne means that they can be baited a bit too easily at LD8. Fourth, I think a scroll caddy and lvl 2 is needed to balance out magic offense and defense. I'm not sure where to put him unless you use a small marauder infantry unit or marauder horsemen unit. Matt found his lvl 1 unmarked shadow scroll caddy was extremely useful even compared with festus and lore of nurgle. The shadow lore is good and a lvl 2 with slaanesh in a unit of slaanesh (won't break or run) is an option. If marked slaanesh and put with marauder horsemen or hellstriders and mounted on a steed of slaanesh, the lvl 2 gets fast cav and a +1 armour save. The one thing about Nurgle however is the potential to boost the regen of the trolls when they are able to avoid flaming attacks and to mess with the toughness of opposing units or increase the toughness of your units with the #3 spell and to boost poison for a warhound unit with poison with the #2 spell, so another wizard with lvl 2 nurgle might work well with the DP. Miasma is also potentially really important for the slower trolls but I saw how it can lower WS of an opposing unit enough to be hitting the skullcrushers on 5"s instead of 4's. Giving regen to the skullcrushers is cool and plague wind very effective especially against lower T and high AS units. With the flying DP, the signature spell is quite effective. The only problem with a lvl 2 of nurgle is that he needs, with this army to either be in a chaos knight nurgle unit or a warriors of nurgle unit with banner of swiftness to try to keep up with the rest of the army.
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Post by clint on Apr 9, 2013 16:28:05 GMT -6
The list is a bit of a min max, part of the draw/curiosity is whether the strengths (MI blocks) outweigh the liabilities....
The Skullcrushers without command and with 4 in each unit equals 624 out of 625 potential rare points. I could drop to 3 riders/unit to get command, but does a banner buy me more vs static resolution, or does a 4th skullcrusher...? I will admit the chaff might be troublesome, but when the whole army moves 12+ inches per turn there isn't usually that much screening available to try and stop 6 units that will be deployed quite wide.
A BSB would be great, but I am trying to figure out where to fit him without just getting him cannon sniped off the board. That is one lesson from this past weekend, characters in small units and solo are too vulnerable. But in sticking with the trolls I am stuck without a lookout sir. And unless I go with one BIG unit of crushers there's no value mounting him and putting him in a small crusher unit. If I stick him with infantry he will get left behind and not be that useful anyway...
I also agree about the scroll caddy - nice to have, but I am trying to balance the value of one wizard with a scroll vs an entire unit of trolls or skull crushers. Yes it helps vs the unit killing spells, but dropping one unit out of 6... to potentially prevent me from losing one unit out of 6...
I even debated about the magic levels on the DP, but they were sort of there for the taking. I could drop a level and add the flaming breath... trying to balance the +1 on the dispel vs +2... to get one (nice) breath weapon attack.
My only other debate is whether to go 8 trolls each in 4 units or 5 units of 6/7.
Thanks for the thoughts. I am going to make some movement trays so that I can proxy this up with my ogres to see how it plays.
Anyone up for a game...? /Clint
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Post by dg1 on Apr 10, 2013 11:16:30 GMT -6
We discussed at length yesterday. The BSB is essential for the trolls. Also, the low I of the trolls means you need other units with speed. Thus, I would run one unit of seven trolls plus throgg and another unit of six to eight trolls and fill out core with warhounds or marauder horsemen or the warrior of chaos character bunker discussed below.
I would consider either a warriors of chaos bunker unit, a marauder horsemen bunker unit, or a chaos knight bunker unit for a BSB and a level 2 caster. Matt ran an unmarked lvl1 with shadow and had a lot of utility with it this weekend. I like the chaos knight unit only because of the boosted armour save and mobility, although it is a lot more expensive and, thus, a better target for cannons and stone throwers and magic (especially lore of metal spells and death spells, so MR could be important). If warriors, adding a banner of swiftness would make them M5 and able to keep up with the trolls pretty well. Mark of Tzeentch might be a good option for the unit with BSB, the BSB mounted on a chaos steed with talisman of preservation, MoTz and third eye and a shield has a 1+ armour save and a 3+ ward with a re-roll on each 1. Matt and Aaron both discussed running a solo BSB with daemonic mount, MoTz, third eye, and talisman of preservation. No look out sir but the high ward save and ability to screen with trolls and skull crushers probably does the trick most games. You gain an extra wound, +1 T and 2 strength 5 WS 4 daemonic attacks with the mount as well as fear.
I have seen people discussing running a fast cav unit with a slaanesh wizard (for either shadow or slaanesh, both lores have good utility and range, the #2 spell of slaanesh is great for character sniping and the #1, #5 and #6 spells are really good; however, the signature spell of shadow is so good for your army, especiallly for a nurgle unit). Slaanesh means that the unit never panics or fails a fear or terror check. The steed of slaanesh gives the wizard the fast cav rule per the FAQ for page 82 of the BRB. That gives the unit incredible flexibility to free reform, bait and flee and feigned flight, and unlimited wheeling. The unit can be screened if there is a lot of shooting on the field and run around if not. Even running the wizard with the ASF sword and a dispel scroll with a unit of hellstriders with hellscourges is an interesting idea for dealing with other fast cav, chaff and running down single models. I looked and found nothing regarding shields or chaos armour taking away fast cav bonus of a slaanesh steed. Once the hellstriders destroy a unit they get devastating charge and they get to a 4+ ward after destroying 3 units.
I do not think flaming does much for a DP and you should have plenty of points for a flaming breath weapon, which has more utility with soul feed in combat.
I'd be up for a game next week but will be busy through this weekend getting work done.
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Post by matthakala on Apr 10, 2013 13:43:48 GMT -6
If you do run the BSB with 3rd eye on a Daemonic mount(it's being called the Hortennse BSB on the CoTEC forums), run a great weapon instead of a shield. It puts him at s7, so he can go toe to toe with any lord in the game except a Chaos Lord in combat. I ran the math and it was 50/50 vs a DP, which is worth it, seeing as the BSB is close to half the points. Death is the better choice on the DP. You really need a lot of spells to make Lore of Nurgle worth it in comparison, and with just the lvl2 DP, you won't have enough. I would recommend against flaming attacks on the DP. They don't work with magic weapons (you are using Sword of Striking, so the flaming attacks do nothing), and make him vulnerable to things like the K'daaii or characters with Dragon helm, which can easily lock him into a challenge. Also, I would drop one of those troll units down to 7 to get the breath weapon on the Daemon Prince. It is really useful for softening up large blocks of infantry, and will likely pay for itself in almost every game.
Musicians are going to be important on the Skullcrushers so that they can recover faster after being frenzy baited. Without the musicians, they can't charge chaff or they become useless for an extra turn. Running 1 unit of 3 and 1 of 4 with musicians or dropping one of the 2 units all together and using those extra points towards the 261pt BSB and breath weapon on the DP wouldn't be a bad idea.
List with the BSB and musicians in the skullcrushers:
2500 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster
Total Roster Cost: 2497 or 2495 (with AHW on the trolls)
Daemon Prince of Nurgle Daemonic Flight Chaos Armor Sword of Striking Charmed Shield Dragonbane Gem Chaos Familiar Flaming Breath Scaled Skin Soul Feeder *Nurgle's Rot (If not running AHW on the trolls)
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (Battle Standard Bearer) Great Weapon Daemonic Mount, Barding Talisman of Preservation Potion of Foolhardiness Third Eye of Tzeentch
Throgg
Total of 28 Chaos trolls or 26 with AHW Personally, I would not run the AHW, because you are just going to vomit against a lot of things anyway (anything that requires hitting on 5s or 6s and/or has a 3+ armor or better when you are hitting on 4s), so the AHW have no effect at that time, and they do not benefit supporting attacks.
4 Skullcrushers of Khorne, 322 Ensorcelled Weapons, mus
3 Skullcrushers of Khorne 244 Ensorcellee Weapons, Mus
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Post by clint on Apr 11, 2013 9:38:41 GMT -6
Good feedback - I like the killy BSB and it also lines up with what was said earlier. Any reason for the Demonic Mount vs the Disc?
I also agree on the no flaming and adding breath weapon for the DP (also pointed out earlier). Having seen an increase in Dragonbane gear lately, not having flaming can be an advantage (yes it does feel odd to say that...)
Well I can certainly proxy this up with some ogre for troll stand-ins.
Thanks...
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Post by dg1 on Apr 11, 2013 10:15:00 GMT -6
I was going to say that you can switch from a daemonic mount to a disc. The daemonic mount benefit is +1 wound, +1T, +2 to armour save with barding, and two daemonic attacks at WS4 and S5 and a stomp. The disc provides 3 daemonic attacks at WS 3 and S4 but also confers flying and a look out sir if close to (4+) or in (2+) a unit of rank and file cav. The only way to get a look out sir on the daemonic mount BSB is to run the skullcrushers in a single unit with at least 5 rank and file models and then you only get the 4+ look out.
Matt's point on the AHW is valid but it is not clear but appears that one can alternate between vomit attacks and regular attacks. You might want to do a matrix as to when a vomit attack makes sense with 3 or 4 attacks depending on the armour save and opposing weapon skill plus any to hit penalties and consider the cost-effectiveness. I think if you run smaller, 3 to 5 wide units you will want to take AHW as a general rule and will have to think about it if ranked up because the AHW benefit is lost in the second row supporting attacks. If you hit on 4+ or 3+, then AHW makes sense (2 hits on average instead of 1 autohit with vomit) for the front row until the armour save is 2+or better and makes sense for the supporting attacks (1.5 hits on average) until the armour save is 3+ or better.
The math on Throgg is different than it used to be. He gets one S5 no armour save breath weapon and 5 regular attacks at S6 and WS 5. He has the troll vomit option but the rule says he only gets one S5 vomit attack instead of his 5 regular attacks. At S6 and 5 attacks and WS5, you will only used the vomit attack with Throgg as it is written (referrring to the trolls special rule) when hitting on 5+ and the armour save is 2+ or when hitting on 6+ (check the math) and depending on the T of the opposing model.
In the old book, Throgg did not have the vomit breath weapon but could always substitute his 5 regular attacks for D6 S5 vomit attacks that autohit with no armour save. Then Throgg would almost always use his vomit attacks against models with T3 or T4 and any armour save of 3+ or better and one would have to do the math of probability of hitting and wounding and armour save against T5 or better and/or AS 3+ or better models.
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Post by matthakala on Apr 11, 2013 18:32:55 GMT -6
Another reason for the Daemonic mount over the disk is that the barding gives you a +1 armor save, and the flying won't be necessary with that kind of list. The BSB needs to stay near as many of the Troll units as possible, and that is more of a deployment issue than a movement issue. With the great ward save and the DP on the board, cannons also won't be a major focus, further minimizing the effects of the lower mobility.
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Post by darkjoo on Apr 14, 2013 14:23:18 GMT -6
This looks really interesting. I'd love to help you test it out. I can meet this week in the evening.
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