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Post by jessegarrett on Jul 23, 2010 0:14:22 GMT -6
Summar, I take back what I said and now I agree with you.
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Post by tagloro on Jul 23, 2010 0:57:28 GMT -6
David Summar FTW
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Post by zao77s on Jul 23, 2010 6:21:38 GMT -6
I love 8th edition. This is big rules disagreement no. 2 and we have had it for 2 weeks! And we are a pretty low key bunch of players!
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Post by hightide on Jul 23, 2010 6:29:21 GMT -6
I love 8th edition. This is big rules disagreement no. 2 and we have had it for 2 weeks! And we are a pretty low key bunch of players! I agree. But remember that Jessie is DA MAN. Whatever he says gos.
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Post by sdhakala on Jul 23, 2010 8:26:36 GMT -6
I'm sorry, but the rules are very clear that cavalry is not the same troop type as war beasts. The fact that riders are mounted on a war beast (even if a flying disc) makes it something other than simply a war beast. I think that the rules are explicitly clear on that. Look at the troop type key on p. 482 and the discussions of troop types on pages 82 for cavalary as compared with war beasts on page 84. On page 84, it explicity says that a character mounted on a war beast follows the rules for cavalary, not war beasts. My only question is whether a hero or mage on a flying disc can get a Look Out Sir! if in or close to a unit of cavalry, when flying cavalry have a different M and special rules. Right now, it appears they can but i would not be surprised if that was FAQed.
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Post by CapAmr05 on Jul 23, 2010 8:36:14 GMT -6
<Scott beat me to it>
David, the listing under the troop type of War Beast has a section called 'Character Mount' that states if a character is riding a warbeast the model uses the Cavlary rules on 82.
I think, since the model is directed to ascribe to the calvary rules, you'd need to keep him near the knights (or fast cav) for LOS(ir) to work, since him and the disc would be following Calvary rules.
Steeds of Slaanesh are also listed as Warbeasts, but when a Daemonette is riding it, they would count as calvary...I think.
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 23, 2010 9:22:02 GMT -6
I understand that. What I'm saying is that the troop type doesn't become Cavalry. The model simply uses the rules as it's a ridden war beast. It doesn't change the fact that the mount is a war beast. It simply follows those rules for operability. Otherwise, why call those things war beasts at all? Why not just list their troop types as cavalry to start? The troop type stays the same. The rules by which that troop type operate simply include the cavalry set. I don't think there's any confusion at all about it myself. Also note that monstrous cavalry follow all the rules of cavalry. By your line of reasoning, monstrous cavalry become cavalry simply because they follow those rules. That'd be awesome; then my juggernaut could join knights, benefit from LOS!, gain protection against shooting, etc. But that's the not case. It's still monstrous cavalry, simply following the rules of cavalry. Just as war beasts are still war beasts, just following (borrowing for game play purposes) the rules of cavalry. I've asked over on Librarium-Online. It's here. I'm curious what some people outside our group think. www.librarium-online.com/forums/warriors-chaos/198356-rules-debate-over-discs-tzeentch-troop-types.htmlI'll be out of town and will have to drop the debate for a while. Later, dudes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this (even if you're wrong ;D).
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Post by sdhakala on Jul 23, 2010 9:53:37 GMT -6
The mount is a war beast. A war beast mount with a rider becomes cavalry (explicitly defined as such) and, therefore, is clearly a different troop type according to the BRB. Also, the rider is not a war beast, so could not possible get a Look Out Sir from a war beast only unit.
Monstrous cavalry is a distinct troop type from normal cavalry and, therefore, an exalted hero on a Jugg gets no Look Out Sir if in a unit of chaos knights or Marauder horsemen. That is absolutely clear and the GW reps I spoke with made that clear. Therefore, a rider on a war beast is cavalry and follows the special rules for cavalry and only gets a Look Out Sir from cavalry, not war beasts.
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Post by CapAmr05 on Jul 23, 2010 10:57:59 GMT -6
That's a great point, just because the mount is a war beast doesn't mean the infantry rider would morph into a war beast himself, he's listed as infantry.
Combining the two units as one (calvary) seems really seems like the best solution for deciding what troop type he in [in terms of LOSir].
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 24, 2010 8:58:53 GMT -6
But a War Beast can morph into cavalry? How does that make sense?
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 24, 2010 15:25:57 GMT -6
The mount is a war beast. A war beast mount with a rider becomes cavalry (explicitly defined as such) and, therefore, is clearly a different troop type according to the BRB. Also, the rider is not a war beast, so could not possible get a Look Out Sir from a war beast only unit. The only thing that's explicit is that the war beast when ridden uses the rules for cavalry, not that it becomes cavalry. To say that it transforms troop types based on that sentence is reading something into the sentence that's not there. That much is plainly clear to me. More insight might come from page 104, which I think fairly settles it for us, listing only four types of mounts for characters. The cavalry section on 104 seems to nail it down the a 1 wound ridden whatnot is cavalry. The errata takes care of typing the juggernaut as monstrous cav. The first sentence isn't in dispute, but I fail to see how you get from that to "therefore ..., not war beasts." What's the causal connection there? GW should've looked at the mounts and just typed them cavalry or mon cav and simplified things. Notice palanquin is typed as infantry. That's an odd one. Is it then treated as cav, getting a LOS! from cav and not infantry?
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Post by zao77s on Jul 24, 2010 17:36:07 GMT -6
I agree with David in that if GW wanted a warbeast to become a cavalry unit then it should have said, "when ridden a warbeast becomes cavalry." They instead state that when ridden a warbeast follows the rules for cavalry. I agree that since this is true, they remain warbeasts for the purpose of LOS but follow the rules for cavalry for things such as shooting and combat.
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Post by sdhakala on Jul 24, 2010 23:20:24 GMT -6
GW did explicitly say what I'm saying on page 104 of the BRB. It explicitly says that a character on a war beast is cavalry, not the war beast troop type. It says explicitly that "If a character has a cavalry mount [war beast], the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'cavalry' and follows the rules for both characters and cavalry models." Since it is a troop type of cavalry, it cannot get a Look Out Sir! from a unit of war beasts. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense that a character (which is not a war beast) would get a Look Out Sir! from a war beast unit just because it is riding a war beast.
Similarly, a model with a rider on a monstrous beast (Jugg, Peg, etc.) is counted as monstrous cavalry troop type (p. 105 of the BRB), so a model on an Jugg or Daemonic Mount cannot get a Look Out Sir! from units of infantry, war beasts, cavalry, or monstrous infantry.
This isn't that hard guys and how can one read that line on page 104 and still argue that a character on a war beast mount counts as a war beast troop type!
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Post by zao77s on Jul 25, 2010 7:32:57 GMT -6
I think the most telling line on page 104 is the one that mentions number of wounds. The part that states, "If a character is riding a mount with a single Wound, he is riding a cavalry mount."
If a disc has a single Wound on its profile, then it and the character on top are cavalry, albeit flying cavalry.
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 25, 2010 7:56:38 GMT -6
GW did explicitly say what I'm saying on page 104 of the BRB. It explicitly says that a character on a war beast is cavalry, not the war beast troop type. It says explicitly that "If a character has a cavalry mount [war beast], the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'cavalry' and follows the rules for both characters and cavalry models." Since it is a troop type of cavalry, it cannot get a Look Out Sir! from a unit of war beasts. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense that a character (which is not a war beast) would get a Look Out Sir! from a war beast unit just because it is riding a war beast. Similarly, a model with a rider on a monstrous beast (Jugg, Peg, etc.) is counted as monstrous cavalry troop type (p. 105 of the BRB), so a model on an Jugg or Daemonic Mount cannot get a Look Out Sir! from units of infantry, war beasts, cavalry, or monstrous infantry. This isn't that hard guys and how can one read that line on page 104 and still argue that a character on a war beast mount counts as a war beast troop type! Page 104 wasn't brought into this discussion until a few posts ago when I raised it, at which point I conceded that a disc would be cavalry. The passage under consideration was page 84, where people were reading a troop type transformation into a sentence that wasn't explicitly there, since that's the word of the hour. If that passage on 104 had been raised earlier, we would have avoided much unnecessary debate. I think your last sentence is unwarranted considering this.
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