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Post by rangerdave on Oct 22, 2010 22:23:51 GMT -6
Played Ron in our campaign game tonight.
I took lvl 4 sorcerer lord with shadow, shield of ptolos, and blood of tzeentch (which I forgot the entire game) Exalted hero on steed, stubborn, tzeentch, horse Exalted Hero, bsb, tzeentch, some magic stuff, horse
23 tz warriors with banner of rage, full command, halberds 10 khorne horsemen with flails 10 knights of tz, full command, blasted standard shaggoth shrine cannon
1 sentence summary, with alliteration: Pit pops the pope on turn 1.
That's it. First spell, IF pit, pope fails In test, dies.
Other events: 3 horsemen survived shooting to take out war machines. Shaggoth has lots of great stats, but toughness 5 means he dies every game. Shrine shouldn't get too ballsy with its charges. Warriors lost a fair amount to my miscasts, his magic and shooting, but even 6 enraged warriors with halberds kill lots of things. Hell cannon pays off more times than it lets me down.
Sorcerer suffered two serious miscasts, rolling 2-4 results. No puppet, but I got lucky and didn't roll 1-3. Ron's on the other hand rolled a 3 to miscast and then disappeared.
Lore of shadows works great in conjunction with a shrine.
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Post by zao77s on Oct 23, 2010 7:45:30 GMT -6
Seems like your current thread of lists are successful when they include: a large unit of warriors, a big unit of knights, a lvl. 4, at least one shrine and a hellcannon. I say you make those your template and add bits and bobs around that to fill out the army. I am anxious to see how well your 8 man ogre unit will do. Yuck.
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Post by rangerdave on Oct 29, 2010 22:36:20 GMT -6
Because I'm bored...
Choppy Characters Chaos Lord of Tzeentch, halberd, chaos steed, talisman of preservation, crown of command, dragonhelm, stream of corruption BSB of Tzeentch, chaos steed, shield, talisman of endurance, golden sigil sword, favor of the gods
Magicky Characters Lvl 2 sorcerer of tzeentch, spell shield, dispel scroll Lvl 2 sorcerer of Tzeentch, infernal puppet, iron curse icon, charmed shield
Interference 5 horsemen of slaanesh, flail, lt armor, musician 5 horsemen of slaanesh, flail, lt armor, musician 5 warhounds 5 warhounds 1 spawn of slaanesh
The Beef 23 warriors of tzeentch, shields, full command, rapturous standard 8 knights of tzeentch, full command, blasted standard Hellcannon
The Buff Warshrine of Tzeentch
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Post by zao77s on Oct 30, 2010 8:00:41 GMT -6
With the ability to take such great armor/ward saves on your characters, I wonder why you don't use them more as "missiles" in that you split them off from units and plunge them into smaller elite units. For instance, your Lord with 3+ ward could easily take out my 14 black guard over a few turns and that would free your other units to work on other models.
P.S. I got another hydra model finally. No more chariot hydra. Just you wait.
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Post by rangerdave on Oct 30, 2010 12:12:22 GMT -6
I dunno. ASF black guard supported by a cauldron make me edgy.
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Post by Eric on Oct 30, 2010 12:26:06 GMT -6
It's a trap . . . !!
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Post by rangerdave on Oct 31, 2010 0:04:55 GMT -6
Yes, yes! A trap!
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Post by zao77s on Oct 31, 2010 18:34:43 GMT -6
I purposely left out the cauldron. If you see black guard and a cauldron in a list, never run a lone character at them, not matter how cool your character is.
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Post by rangerdave on Nov 10, 2010 13:02:25 GMT -6
In the context of Big A$S units, I wonder about this:
Chaos Lord of Tzeentch, halberd, stubborn, 3+ armor, 3+ ward, 2+ ward vs. fire BSB of Tzeentch, 2+ armor, 4+ ward, favor of the gods Sorcerer, lvl 2, death, dispel scroll, shield, MR1 Sorcerer, lvl 2, death, ironcurse icon, puppet
20 warriors of tzeentch, halberds, full command, blasted standard 20 warriors of tzeentch, halberds, full command, rapturous standard 8 Ogres of Khorne, standard, musician, great weapons, chaos armor 40 Marauders of Khorne, full command, great weapons 10 Horsemen of Slaaensh, flails, musician, light armor
I guess 20 warriors is big ass for warriors. I'd like a horde just for giggles, but I think it's much sounder to have two units of 20, 7 wide, with 2 characters in each.
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Post by jessegarrett on Nov 10, 2010 15:29:24 GMT -6
Why do you think two smaller units are more sound than one big one?
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Post by rangerdave on Nov 10, 2010 15:31:25 GMT -6
More tactical flexibility, more threat points, more redundancy if one suffers a big loss from the enemy.
What do you think? I haven't had a terrible amount of 8th edition experience, other than Aaron kicking my butt lately, so I'm certainly open to thoughts.
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Post by jessegarrett on Nov 10, 2010 17:49:22 GMT -6
I would atleast try a unit of 40 warriors in horde formation. It lacks flexibility but it also doesnt die.
You basically auto lose to well built dark elfs but I dont see how thats different from 90% of woc armies.
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Post by sdhakala on Nov 11, 2010 15:07:49 GMT -6
I think warshrines are simply too valuable and useful with their buff ability to not include in the army. Dropping the hellcannon is sound. Even at 40, marauders die too fast. Warriors at 20 models do just fine, especially if blessed and protected. Two units of warriors provide more coverage and flexibility relative to one larger unit.
The ogres are much improved with chaos armour but don't really need a standard for CR. I'd still put a mark on them to better protect them. MoK if you plan to keep them within the range of the BSB, MoN if WS is close and you expect to see BS shooting (ogres can get shot up with T4 and AS 4+) or MoTz for that 6+ ward save.
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Post by sdhakala on Nov 19, 2010 12:41:18 GMT -6
Interesting empires campaign game with Hill Bullock playing Warriors of Chaos against my Dark Elf with Skaven Allies army last night at 2750 points. Lots of fun and bloody battle with approx half the points lost by the end of turn six, three captured banners with one recaptured at the end.
Hill played the following: 75 marauders MoN, full command, with great weapons, with a BSB, a lvl 1 death wizard, and a lvl 2 nurgle wizard in one unit. 2 Hellcannons 6 MoN chaos knights with flaming banner, no champ Approx 30 chaos warriors with MoT and full command with a lvl 1 nurgle caster and with a chaos lord MoT on disc with Talisman of protection (6+ ward), shield, and dragonhelm
Death caster chose Soul Blight (-1T and -S till caster's next magic phase, really effective against my COK unit) Nurgles both had buboes and one had plague squall as well
I played: -2 Hydras -10 Cold One Knights (COKs) with music and ASF magic banner, with BSB with 1+ AS re-rollable on dark steed (dragonhelm, cloak, shield, heavy armour) with beastmaster's scourge (mundane, +1A, AP) and dreadlord with 1+ AS and pendant (reverse ward save based on S of Attack) and with whip of agony (+1A, S5 unmodifiable, AP) -Two units of 17 and 18 repeater cross-bowmen (RXBs) with music. -A Cauldron of Blood -6 dark riders with music and cross-bows as fast cav -One unit of 22 spearmen with magic banner (discipline for +1 LD) with a lvl 4 sorceress with 4+ ward save and sac dagger casting Lore of Metal (Signature spell, two unit augments for (i) increasing AS by +2 and (ii) +1 to hit and AP, and final transmutation (anti-horde spell, single wound models in unit die on a 5+, multi-wound models die on a 6, with no saves at all) -A lvl 2 on dark stead with extra spell casting Dark Magic (Word of Paid hex to unit at BS=1 and WS=1, Soul Stealer direct damage cast even into combat causes each model to take S2 hit with no AS, black horror direct damage 5" round strength test with no AS) -Allied units of warp lightning cannon and doomwheel (due to special event, since both dark elves and skaven are unreliable allies in 8th edition, I thought the allied choice should be skaven).
Hill had an event (scouts) that forced me to chose table sides and deploy my entire army first and then he got to go first. Knowing I got to choose sides, I had deployed terrain (rolled for a lot of terrrain) to slow Hill from advancing (marsh, river, two obstacles, and some forests), I then deployed with more concentration but in a partial refused flank with hydras separated. Hill getting to go first proved to be important in the end, as his hellcannons were simply refusing to rampage and rolling direct hits in the first two rounds. I could not get the Cauldron ward save up until my turn and threaten him before he killed some of my cold one unit with a hellcannon shot, put two wounds on my warpfire cannon, wounded my dreadlord once with buboes, and wound my lvl 4 once with buboes in round one. Fortunately for me, the marsh really inhibited Hill's marauder unit and allowed me to get my lvl 2 within 12 inches and my lvl 4 within 24 inches to cast the big anti-horde spells successfully and my hydra got into range to flame it and then charge and kill it. I had no good answer to Hill's lord because he had a 2+ ward save to flaming rendering my Lore of Metal magic missile largely ineffective and his hellfire sword was devastating in combat with multi-wound models (hydra, cauldron and doomwheel). What happened to units:
Hill killed: -the warp lightning cannon in turn two with two direct hits from hellcannons after it fired only once and failed due to rolling a zero (misfire) on the bounce -one hydra by the lord with the hellfire sword -the doomwheel with a hellcannon hit and charged simultaneously by a hellcannon and the lord with the hellfire sword after it had just recovered from a misfire/out-of-control the prior round -the cold one knight unit eventually died on turn five with his few remaining chaos knights in the front and his warrior unit in the flank. But he but could not kill or even wound my BSB and stubborn dreadlord never took a second wound through the end of combat in round six -the spearman unit suffered an early hellcannon direct hits that, combined with sac dagger, meant that a second direct hit by a hellcannon in round six finished it off -the Cauldron of Blood with his lord on disc after a few rounds of combat where I passed a lot of ward saves after (died valiently holding up and delaying the lord) -my lvl 4 got hit repeatedly by the hellcannon direct hits and buboes spells to suffer two wounds (after some ward saves were passed) and then died on a miscast in teh bottom of turn 6 (trying to pull out the win and cast with my lvl 2 and Hill used the puppet to hit both caster with S6 hits and kill my casting dice)
I killed: -the 75 marauder unit and the two casters in the unit with a combo of soul stealer (one-third of unit), final transmutation (one-third of unit), a bit of shooting damage (minimal effectiveness due to nurgle reducing hit rate) from both RXB and the dark rider unit, finished off with a breath weapon shot from a hydra in close range and a hydra charge that killed a lot and led to the unit breaking and getting caught -the chaos knight unit in round six after repeated armour saves and Hill hexing to reduce the S of my cold one unit with dreadlord and BSB (very annoying) -one hellcannon with directed fire from the two large RXB units and the dark riders (hits on 5's for the most part and wounds on six but AP eventually got it in turn five)
In the end, Hill moved his chaos lord in front of and to block my hydra from charging the rear of his BSB (now locked in combat with my stubborn dreadlord with the last chaos knight and the warrior of chaos block). My BSB was stuck in a challenge with Hill's last wizard and could not manage to get the final wound on it to kill it due to very poor rolls to hit and wound and successful armour saves in repeated rounds of combat. If I don't miscast and lose my lvl 4 and can either charge and kill his BSB (Hill blocked this from happening with his lord on disc) or kill his Nurgle wizard in an ongoing challenge with my BSB, then I barely win in the end. If Hill's last chaos knight does not die to attacks from my dreadlord in the bottom of round 6 (his BSB and Nurgle wizard live) after my lvl 4 died on a miscast, then Hill wins. Hill had won 1430 VPs (including 156 points from a direct hit and killing all of my remaining spearman and 330 points from my lvl 4 dying on a failed ward save at the top of turn six) and I had won 1284(?) VPs, where our campaign rules require a 300 point differential to win a minor victory.
I found out that Nurgle can be very effective. It substantially reduced the effectiveness of my RXB shooting (cutting the hit rate in half in rounds one and two) which had to target Hill's MoN marauder unit due to range and deployment. Because our WS levels were equal or within 1 of each other, characters and units with MoN were able to effectively reduce my hit rate from hitting on 3's to hitting on 4's in key battles and this saved Hill's last MoN wizard. Since chaos ogre units can get shot up, I wonder if MoN is not a better option at times if one expects to see a lot of BS-based shooting.
Even an extremely large unit can be killed eventually and consumes so many points and is sufficiently cumbersome to move in a battle with dangerous terrain features. Picking out a key unit and going after its characters/leadership and dividing and conquering, can still win a game or pull out a draw.
Max armour saves really mattered in this battle. Hill's ability to successfully avoid wounds with AS rolls (especially for his wizards and his lord and his chaos knights) and my ability on my BSB and dreadlord to avoid wounds with AS rolls were extremely important to the outcomes.
The puppet was an important magic item and really messed me up with the number of my miscasts (greater than average despite using the sac dagger to limit double 6's on the lvl 4 and limit casting die rolled).
Wariors of chaos armies have a problem and disadvantage in that one either can run a very strong and tough fighting lord or a well-equipped lvl4, but not both even at 2750. Whereas, I can run a reasonably equipped lvl 4 and a very difficult to kill and reasonably effective dreadlord at 2500 points in a dark elf army.
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