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Post by rangerdave on Jul 27, 2010 19:29:53 GMT -6
Awesome, thanks a lot! I've only read the book once and haven't had time to study it, much less notate it, as you have.
New WoC list coming up.
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 27, 2010 22:20:02 GMT -6
This list has two magic users and the BSB, instead of 1 wizard and two exalteds. I'm still trying to work with the models I own.
CHARACTERS Sorcerer Lord lvl 4, general, lore of shadows, arabyan carpet, talisman of preservation, charmed shield, bloodcurdling roar (flies, 3+ armor, 3+ ward, 2d6 str 1 hits with no armor save, ignore first hit on a 2+)
Nurgle Sorcerer lvl 1, collar of khorne, dragonhelm, conjoined homunculus, chaos steed (1+ armor save, MR 2, 6+ ward, add d3 to a casting roll at the cost of Stupidity the following turn)
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch BSB, disc, shield, talisman of endurance, biting blade, bronze armor of zhrakk (2+ armor, 4+ ward, Immune to Psych and killing blow and poison.
CORE Chaos Warhounds x 12 Marauder Horsemen, 2 units of 5, Flails, musician, light armor, axes Warriors of Khorne x 21, full command, rapturous standard, halberds, shields
SPECIAL Chaos Knights of Nurgle x 11, full command, banner of rage (never lose frenzy) Chaos Chariots x 2
RARE Hellcannon
I've been reading reports of people wreaking havoc with the lore of shadow, so I'm repurposing my Tzeentch sorcerer lord for the moment. He's now riding an Arabyan carpet-disc.
The Nurgler will attempt Buboes each turn, unless there's no good target and no dice to spare. His magic resistance will really buff the knights against damage. I gave up the stubborn helmet for this, so I'm not sure what I'll think.
The BSB will try to dart around and stay alive, but he'll need to get into combat sooner or later. Str 6 is better, but the biting blade still helps you slip wounds past enemy armor...plus, it's cheap.
The warriors will need either to get into combat or to shield themselves from shooting and magic. As long as I can keep a few alive at the game's end, it'll be okay.
Warhounds are big enough to draw attention and screen the warriors if needed, but are worth just 60 points.
Obviously, the knights are the money shot, but they have MR2 and there are 2 chariots and a big block of khorne warriors looking at them, not to mention some capable magic.
So what do people think?
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Post by hightide on Jul 28, 2010 6:40:26 GMT -6
Looks good.
One question. Does your Lord ignore first hit on a 2+ or his first wound on a 2+?
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 28, 2010 7:23:41 GMT -6
First hit, so it could be totally wasted by something like a unit of bowmen, and I don't know how that works against magic.
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 29, 2010 21:33:29 GMT -6
Sorcerer Lord lvl 4, general, lore of shadows, arabyan carpet, talisman of preservation, charmed shield, bloodcurdling roar (flies, 3+ armor, 3+ ward, 2d6 str 1 hits with no armor save, ignore first hit on a 2+) Nurgle Sorcerer lvl 1, collar of khorne, dragonhelm, conjoined homunculus, chaos steed (1+ armor save, MR 2, 6+ ward, add d3 to a casting roll at the cost of Stupidity the following turn) Exalted Hero of Tzeentch BSB, disc, shield, talisman of endurance, biting blade, bronze armor of zhrakk (2+ armor, 4+ ward, Immune to Psych and killing blow and poison.
CORE Chaos Warhounds x 12 Marauder Horsemen, 2 units of 5, Flails, musician, light armor, axes Warriors of Khorne x 21, full command, rapturous standard, halberds, shields
SPECIAL Chaos Knights of Nurgle x 11, full command, banner of rage (never lose frenzy) Chaos Chariots x 2
RARE Hellcannon
I got smoked tonight by DoC.
First, some context, I had poor dice. Not rotten, horrible dice, but I had poor dice throughout the game, consistently rolling sub-par. That said, my review is colored in that I didn't get to see the army perform with average rolls. And to be fair, I had some good rolls. Double 6's on the winds of magic! And my Hellcannon had its laser scope on.
The general died in the end after failing a 4+ ward save and taking a str 10 amber bolt in the gut. Before that, he had little effect on the game. Despite getting enhanced miasma on some flamers, that combat still went south. He dropped the toughness of the bloodthirster, but he made 4 of 5 ward saves from my warrior unit. Once my knights and warriors were gone (read that in a minute), he had only one direct damage spell, pit of shades, and that didn't do anything.
The nurgle guy was run down when his unit failed. He didn't add much to the magic phase, and I might go back to the exalted champion.
The BSB also died, failing his 4+ ward saves (and 2+ armor saves). He's still worth taking, but this was a poor showing.
The warriors also did badly, losing combat to a bloodthirster that maxed out its overkill in an eye of the gods challenge. The next round, they rolled poorly to hit him, and took numerous wounds by the time thunderstomp was done. They'd hold with the rapturous standard but were then charged by a bloodletter horde to the front and another bloodletter unit to the flank. My only question here is whether or not to try tzeentch warriors. The 5+ parry would have been really, really helpful, and once you lose that first battle with khorne warriors, you've lost frenzy. You don't lose Tzeentch. Khorne is a fickle god, I guess. And 4+ armor saves kinda suck.
I forgot to use my vanguard rule with the fast cav. Doh! They caused some trouble, distracted a unit or two, and took down his flyers.
The knights, well, you've heard about my poor dice, but these guys, they were hit by a regular unit of bloodletters, flubbed their hit rolls, trashed their wound rolls, and failed a bunch of armor saves just for the hell of it. I had swapped out an item on the nurgle sorcerer, the stubborn helmet, in favor of something else. I won't make that mistake again. These guys are too central a part of my list to risk not having stubborn.
I deployed poorly, something I do too often, and wasn't able to keep my khorne chariots working together. My first one took a torpedo shot at his flamers, rolled 3 impact hits, but took two wounds in return, failing both armor saves (I'd lost two wounds to shooting already) and died. The other one took himself on a wild goose chase.
The hellcannon did a great job. It landed two direct hits, though I targeted the wrong unit with it. I was going for his bloodletter horde, 38 strong it was. To reduce the effectiveness of the horde I would have to kill off more than 8 models, which I did, but I should've gone for one of the regular bloodletter units since I would've killed just as many guys, reduced his rank bonus, and made them much less trouble, while the horde was going to be trouble no matter what. I think I should be more aggressive with this, maybe moving it on turn 1 instead of getting greedy for shooting. If I shove it up the battlefield, it's a real issue for the enemy.
I overestimated my armor, as well as the value of my guy's high initiative. Getting the charge is still important as that +1 to combat res matters a lot as winning that first combat gets momentum in your favor.
I'm going back to my tzeentch sorcerer lord and will try tzeentch warriors for a few games. The knights will get their stubborn character back, and I'll get some hounds in the game for cheap meat shields.
I'm not sure Khorne is worth it on chariots, and I will probably leave them unmarked or go back to slaanesh. Nurgle wouldn't be bad, as shooting is always an issue.
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Post by sdhakala on Jul 30, 2010 9:02:30 GMT -6
I got to watch since I screwed up my ankle foot and was in pain. I think that Tzeentech Lore would have been more effective than shadow on the Lvl 4. The shadow lore lowered the toughness of the BT and nerfed one other model but it did not do as much as expected. The Lvl 4 was very effective in flying around but ultimately died to a boosted Beast Lore amber spear on a failed ward save (bad luck).
David's rolls to wound and hit were also below average and that cost him a lot of combat resolution in three key combats. Matt actually had some poor rolls to hit but the hatred re-rolls kept him winning challenges and CR.
The key was one horde and two moderate-sized bloodletter units with heralds of Khorne and magic standards. Matt had a combined bloodletter horde and bloodthirster charge and rolled a 5 (1,1,3) of a 3D6 with the extra D6 due to a banner. Yet, his BT survived combat long enough to get the bloodthirster horde in on the warrior block and then it was over. The combination of step up, hatred rerolls and S5 attacks is quite devastating. Matt got decent to above average Daemon ward saves, but the S5 really cuts into warriors' armour saves and he ended up hitting with a high rate with re-rolls and wounding at a high rate with S5.
Matt's 10 model unit of horrors did not do much but did get single dice flickering fire magic casts, which helps but is nowhere as worthwhile as horrors used to be in boosting power dice. I think a unit of faster daemonettes, flamers or fleshhounds would have been a better choice.
The warhounds just did not seem to do much. The M. Horsemen were effective in shooting and distracting one unit of bloodletters as long as they stayed away from flamers.
Chaos knights against a ranked unit of bloodletter with a herald of khorne with killing blow was too much for the ranked up unit. Chaos knights really need to hit flanks and avoid frontal combat with units with good S and ranks, esepcially with killing blow.
I was surprised at how easily the chariots were wouded by the flamers and magic damage and did not manage to win combat against a unit of flamers.
Matt kept forgetting to take the resurrection ability when his Lore of Life spells got off but it really did not matter. The key to Lore of Life is to get the key spell off that boosts the other spells and to boost the toughness of the bloodletters so that they are more resilient to shooting and magic. Since WoC don't have a lot of shooting, other than the hellcannon (which rolled two direct hits but still did only modest damage due to ward saves), if the toughness boost gets on the bloodletter horde unit it will roll over just about anything with the extra D6 move/charge.
Both players needed to look more closely at planning out and staging spells. Twice David got the big winds of magic rolls (double 6) and just did not get the value out of the opportunity. Matt tended to roll the winds of magic with one of the dice being 1 (meaning that the power dice were only one greater than the the dispel dice) and then attempted the higher cost spells with lvl 2s (and had some unusually low dice rolls) that limited his magic more than it should have been limited. Also, Matt's placement of his mages and David's BSB on disc made then vulnerable. If David's chariot charge on Matt's flamers had succeeded then David could potentially have overrun into Matt's mages. On the other hand, David's BSB was just enough exposed such that one of Matt's bloodletter units ran into it when catching in pursuit David's broken and fleeing chaos knight unit.
It should be noted that this was not as optimal of a DoC army, no fleshhounds, fewer flamers, and more core than is optimal. The MR of fleshhounds make them tough against armies with limited shooting.
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Post by rangerdave on Jul 30, 2010 22:27:09 GMT -6
Playing WoC is a big change for me. I'm accustomed to what was a hyper-mobile army with my WEs. Now I have plodding infantry and knights moving in stiff formations. I haven't learned to use these units in tandem like I did with my WEs.
Also, playing an aggressive magic phase is new to me, especially with the new magic system. Unfamiliarity with the spells and how they'd influence the game and two armies also cost me.
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Post by zao77s on Jul 30, 2010 23:23:48 GMT -6
While I know your WE aren't as effective as they used to be, I think you could still do some pretty nasty damage with them. I imagine this list:
lvl. 4- dispel scroll Highborn- alter, GW, aracane bodkins, bow of loren, armor of fortune (heavy armor, 5+ ward), shield Noble- alter, gw, light armor, shield, helm of the hunt, hail fo doom Noble- BSB, armor of silvered steel (2+), GW
20 glade guard-full command, banner of springtide 20 glade guard- full command 5 glade riders- musician 8 dryads 8 dryads 8 dryads
9 wardancers- musician, champ(BSB's unit)
10 waywatchers 10 waywatchers
With the ability to march and shoot, to march even within marchblocking range, vanguard moves, firing in two ranks, and the increased armor/ward saves provided by the BRB, you can actually have a pretty nasty list. I think you should try it out. It should still play like the old school WE, you just need to avoid combat until you have no other recourse or until you can win convincingly. With the ability to march around units, you can probably do that well.
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Post by zao77s on Jul 31, 2010 22:18:00 GMT -6
Not to mention the new lores of life and beast are pretty great as well. With +4 to cast, your spellweaver should be a bit better too.
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Post by rangerdave on Aug 1, 2010 18:39:07 GMT -6
I just don't think shooting's enough. Without serious firepower, I need combat, too, but it's just not there. Eternal Guard can't hold up. Treekin are expensive. Treemen got a thunderstomp boost but are just as vulnerable as before.
I don't think my WEs will be out of the closet for quite some time.
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Post by sdhakala on Aug 1, 2010 21:19:02 GMT -6
Hill Bullock and I played Aaron Chapman and Matt Hakala in an 8th edition modified team battle. Hill played WoC with a Lvl 4 with Shadows and Lvl 2 with Lore of Tzeentech. I played Dark Elves with Lvl 4 and Lvl 2 with DE lore. Aaron played Vampires. Matt played Daemons with lvl 2's with Life and Beasts.
Shadow was underwhelming again. Tzeetch Lore is much better. We might have stood a chance but Matt got a lucky charge role on my lvl 4 (hiding right behind a forest but TLOS and fliers can fly into a forest with only a dangerous terrain test and Matt did not lose a model) and killed my lvl 4 when it (unluckily) failed its ward saves.
Matt's two smaller bloodletter units and Aaron's 2 large skelly units got destroyed but held off and damaged a unit of 6 chaos ogres (2 killed), corsairs with RHBs (3 killed but killed a lot of skellies), and a unit of 19 RHBs with dreadlord (shot well and almost destroyed a unit of bloodletters with guiding eye but destroyed in turn on bad combat rolls against a buffed skelly unit (Matt cast Lore of Life on that unit to boost its toughness and Aaron finally got buffs on the unit such that I could not get enough damage and lost CR and was killed on the flee). My bolt throwers wounded Matt's Bloodthirster and it was killed by my ASF black guard with +1 attack from cauldron (champ died in a challenge to the BT but after wounding the BT and then unit finished off the BT in the next turn with 6 ASF attacks).
In the end, Matt's larger bloodletter horde held the center and rolled over a hellcannon with ease and a large marauder infantry block. Aaron got off a nasty wind of undeath spell (after I lost my lvl 4) that killed a lot of models in units and put out two and a half spirit hosts (which tied up Hill's chosen unit) and then finally ran a blood knight bus over Hill's chaos chosen unit before we ended the game. One of my hydras killed Aaron's fell bats (needed to kill to protect RBTs) and overran into the Aaron's blood knight bus and died to too many attacks with greater initiative to survive ( just not enough successful regens). Basically, I still don't think chaos chosen are worthwhile unless they get the lucky rolls from and war shrine. The warriors of chaos were actually quite effective and killed off a lot. A lot block of chaos marauders was mowed over by Matt's bloodletter horde and are just not strong or tough enough to hold up, regardless of size. A unit of chaos ogres was only modestly effective against a bloodletter unit with a herald of khorne (killed the herald, lost combat but succeeded in fleeing).
While Vampires are not as devastating as before, some of the new common magic items and the new frenzy rules help the blood knights and helped to further protect the vampire lord and a wight king BSB, so it should not be underestimated. Daemons are not as invincible as before but playing an army like Matt is playing and Jordan reportedly played recently in Austin is really tough.
Warriors need Tzeentch Lore with gateway, flickering fire, and pandemonium to go off to beat those armies. Also, the infernal puppet and the Blood of Tzeentch both paid off in this battle but shadow lore does not do enough to combat those armies. It might have been different if my lvl 4 had survived long enough to dispel some more (needed her lvl 4 boost) and managed to get off some big spells like Bladewind, soul stealer and horror later in the game.
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Post by rangerdave on Aug 2, 2010 6:11:58 GMT -6
Interesting report, thanks.
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Post by tagloro on Aug 4, 2010 16:27:12 GMT -6
Ok so what do you guys think of a list built around a demon prince with
Fury of the blood god - MR2 and have a 4+ magic ward save, so in effect a 2+ against spells
Mantle of Chaos - Subtract d3 strength from any ranged attack
Lvl 4 of Death.
The whole point of this guy is to fly around and throw the purple sun at 25+ once per turn
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Post by rangerdave on Aug 4, 2010 17:10:34 GMT -6
So would get a 2+ save against damage caused by miscasts? Hmm, I'd think not, but...
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Post by tagloro on Aug 4, 2010 17:18:40 GMT -6
No but he would get a 5+ against miscasts, and just think of the damage caused by like 3 purple suns with the large template
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